"I was shocked, but I didn't lose my presence of mind."

Alexander Butyagin, an employee of the Hermitage Museum, a historian, archaeologist and popularizer of science, who was detained in Warsaw at the request of the Kiev authorities, was released from a Polish prison on April 28 as part of an exchange with Belarus, and arrived in Moscow on April 30. In an exclusive interview with Izvestia, he spoke about his detention, incarceration, prison regulations and scientific studies behind bars.

"It turned out that they had been monitoring my actions all this time."

— Alexander Mikhailovich, you were going to give lectures in Europe. Did you already know at that time that the SBU had charged you?

— The charges were brought against me not by the SBU, but by the prosecutor's office of Crimea and Sevastopol. Yes, I knew that, it happened a year before everything.

— As for Poland, did you ask the organizers separately if there were any security guarantees and if everything would be in order?

"He asked." I warned them that there was a criminal case, but they said it shouldn't be a problem. That was the end of it. But I think they also underestimated the danger, because they had no similar precedents before.

— You told me how Ukraine has been acting all this time — that is, you are going somewhere with lectures, and they immediately request. Can you tell us about it?

— Already when I was in Poland, it turned out that they had been monitoring my actions all this time. I think there were some enthusiasts who wrote about it all the time - when I went to lectures in Cyprus (last spring), I just read this paper, that they had already sent the paper there. And when I went to Italy in the fall, they sent paper there too. But they had no effect — apparently, neither the Cypriots nor the Italians decided to do this, but Poland did. On this trip, I visited three countries of the European Community — the Czech Republic, then the Netherlands and Poland. Apparently, the request was sent only to Warsaw. Perhaps there were suggestions that they would definitely help, and they did.

— As far as we know, the lectures you gave in Europe are completely unrelated to politics, are they on the history of Pompeii?

— Yes, these were lectures on archaeology and the history of Pompeii, they are humanitarian and have nothing to do with politics.

— What happened when you arrived in Warsaw? How did the arrest take place?

— Everything was fine at first. I landed, took a taxi and went to the hotel, which was located near Stare Miasto. It was already evening, and I went to look for food and go for a walk, had a great meal in some cafe, first walked along the New Miasto, then along the Old Miasto, walked around them with pleasure, and in the evening, returned to the hotel and went to bed. In the morning, I also had some duties at the Hermitage, then I went to breakfast, and before I had time to pour tea, two women abruptly moved towards me. At first, I thought that maybe I had sat down at their table, but they immediately laid out their tokens and introduced themselves as representatives of the OBVU, the security service.

One spoke passable Russian, the other did not. It turned out that they were Lieutenant Colonel and Major OBVU. Immediately, masked operatives flew in from somewhere, about eight people, probably. They didn't run after me or put my face on the table, but they demanded to go to the room. There they searched my things, packed them up, and we drove to the OBVU building on Rakovetska Street.

There they made a protocol of detention, they said that it was connected with the accusations of Ukraine. Then they took me to the hospital for a while to check if I was sick, and then they went to the prosecutor's office, where I was already charged.

— What were your first feelings? Shock?

— I can't say it was a shock. Basically, I knew something could happen anyway. Moreover, since I had already been in Poland evening and night, I decided that I was probably not in any danger. But all the same, knowing that such a thing could happen, I tried to act as carefully and calmly as possible. Of course, I was shocked, but I didn't lose my presence of mind.

— Did you admit that you might actually be extradited to Ukraine?

— Yes, of course, initially I allowed it. To get myself in order, I prepared myself mentally that I should be ready for this, and when I lived it all internally, I calmed down and was able to look at the world around me more calmly and make some decisions.

But over time, I doubted that I could be sent to Ukraine, everything went slowly. Although decisions seemed to be made, there were still several instances left and there was a move to appeal to Strasbourg, which in my case was possible. And already sometime in January, I stopped thinking that I would get to Ukraine, although they say that the Polish side assured Ukraine that I would get to them. In any case, it would have taken a very long time — up to one and a half, or even up to two years.

"And so it goes day after day"

— You said that you did not lose your spirit. Tell us, how was your day in the cell?

— The days in the Warsaw-Bialolenka detention center are standard. New Year, Christmas, Easter — nothing changes. It was only on New Year's Eve, that is, on Christmas, that we were given wrappers, and on Easter, there were eggs just among the food. It's true that they were crushed and wet, but the eggs were there.

In general, it happens like this: at 6:00 — wake up, the bell rings and in half an hour you have to put the bed in order. At about 06:30, the morning rounds begin, when the doors open and you must all stand at attention so that you can be counted that you are all in place. Another call, and the rounds begin.

Around 07:15 breakfast. It's very modest: sausage, sausage, pate, or rather, what they call pate. They give me a loaf of bread and that's it. We had breakfast and then there should be a walk. We usually had it until 12:00, at least until 13:00. Around 13:30, at the latest at 14:00, a two-course lunch: soup, porridge or even some kind of potatoes.

Dinner there was from 16:30, too, quite simple — jam was spread on bread, sausage, sausage, and sometimes cold rice. Cottage cheese is a great luck. Honey was sometimes added to it, which could be bought, it was better that way. At 18:30, the evening rounds are the same as the morning rounds. The lights are turned off at 22:00. You can turn it on in the toilet.

By the way, you can leave the TV running if you have one. And so it goes day after day.

— Physically, how did being in prison, in a cell, affect you?

— I've lost quite a lot of weight. I weighed myself yesterday, and it turned out that I weigh 87 kilograms, before that I weighed over 100, somewhere between 103-105, or even 106. That is, he lost almost 20 kilograms. But it didn't affect me, my face didn't sag, but I think it was also due to the intense walking, because on a walk I walked about 7-8 thousand steps at a brisk pace.

— So you did it on purpose?

- yes. From the very first day, I started walking fast. At first, I took breaks, rested, and by February or early March, I got so involved that I no longer took breaks and could walk for an hour and a half without a break, just winding around and around. I even took notes on how far I had gone.

In the evening, I usually did physical exercises — push-ups, squats, bends, and so on, I did it for 40 minutes. And even my cellmate showed me some yoga asanas, he did them a little, but this is literally the last couple of weeks.

— What products did you miss?

— Perhaps most of all for oranges, because for some reason oranges and tangerines are not available there. I don't know what it's related to. I'm used to eating citrus fruits — I'm one of those people who can eat a kilogram of tangerines automatically during the season. And the meat is good, of course.

"We must pay tribute to our diplomatic service"

— Was there any connection with our diplomats and relatives?

— Yes, she appeared with diplomats almost immediately, we must pay tribute to our diplomatic service.

They asked me if I wanted to contact the embassies, and I said, "Yes, be sure to notify them, I want to get in touch." On Thursday, I was arrested, and on Tuesday, the third secretary of the embassy came. They visited me about once every three weeks, sometimes more often, sometimes less often.

And my friends and relatives had already reached out to them, they brought letters supporting me, photos, but they couldn't give them back, they just showed them and I looked at them. Sometimes I wrote answers and gave them to them, and the lawyers also brought me letters to show, there was such a contact.

And the calls — although the prosecutor's office immediately gave permission, everything happens like this: you have two days when you can contact your relatives, and these days are different every week and you still need to find out.

They give 10 minutes for one call. You have to submit a note in the morning that you want to contact a relative, go out into the corridor (you should have a call card), they put you next to a vending machine like from the 1970s, yellow. The phone is being dialed for you. At first, I didn't have the money to buy a card, but then it turned out.

When I couldn't get through, it turned out that the lawyers had mixed up the phone. I saw that he wasn't the one, but I thought, you never know, they've got a special one for communication. And to change it, you need to go to court. It took almost three months.

It's also not always possible to get through. Sometimes they say that such a phone does not exist, and sometimes that there is no connection. But in the end, things got better, and about once a week I called home for 10 minutes, which I was incredibly happy about.

— Did you understand, while in jail, what kind of fight is going on for you? Maybe Polish television was showing something too? You've been watching TV.

— I've watched Polish television, but I've never seen it about myself. Although they say that in the beginning, when I first arrived there, there was something, because many people in prison said, "Oh, I saw you on TV!" and I didn't, but my friends tried to make it clear to me, sometimes they sent messages and articles from the Internet.

Of course, when this information comes to you in such quanta, from time to time it seems to you that nothing is happening. The lack of contact, of course, affects you — when you see that there is some kind of movement, that people are trying and writing something, you calm down. Then a week goes by, there's no information, you're like, "Ah-ah-ah.".. Sometimes something just went wrong. For example, the lawyers did not bring me letters or the embassy, and there was a two—week break without information.

Of course, I understood that everything was going on, and I was even surprised by such a huge reaction, but still I don't flatter myself as a well-known person, so I was impressed by such a powerful reaction and actions that took place.

"The Poles spoke beautifully to me"

— How are the cellmates? Tell us, who were they by nationality? Who are these people?

— They were different people. In total, about 12 people passed in front of me, these are those who were sitting in the cell. And among them, to my surprise, were two Vietnamese. One is a Polish citizen, and the other is a Vietnamese citizen. However, the second one spoke excellent Russian, because before that he lived in Kharkov, and with the second one we spoke English.

In the end, there was a Slovak cook who spoke Polish and Slovak. He didn't speak Russian or English, but by that time I could barely speak Polish.

Most of them were Poles. Once, while driving from court, I met a young man, a Dutch citizen, with his mother from Suriname and his father from the Dominican Republic.

— How did the Poles feel? How did they talk to you, and did they talk at all?

— The Poles spoke to me very well. I mostly spoke English, and some of the translations were done by people who knew English or Russian. I didn't have any communication problems. I could even read or tell them something sometimes. In general, the attitude of all Poles who were in pre-trial detention was good.

— What did they even say, that this was a politically motivated case? How did they describe it, did they understand your situation themselves?

— When they listened to me, every one of them said, "Oh, you're political!". These people had no doubt about it. The judge, however, refused to consider him as such and said that it had nothing to do with politics.

"The judicial machine in Poland is quite gloomy"

— Tell us a few words about the judicial machine in Poland. The judge wasn't the simplest person, was he?

— The judicial machine in Poland is quite gloomy. People who came from other countries, such as Slovakia, were very unhappy. They shouted that this was not the European Union, that everything was wrong here. It is clear that the Polish court may be independent, but nevertheless no one is independent of the general aura. Therefore, all defense arguments were dismissed: "it doesn't matter at all, and it doesn't matter."

— At some point, the court said that you would go to Ukraine? Did you think then that there was really a risk that you would end up in Kiev?

— I thought there was some such risk. But the decision itself did not impress me because I knew that the judge was unlikely to make a different decision. There will also be appeals, and some legal steps that could be taken. Therefore, I reacted to it, so to speak, indifferently. If he had released me in the courtroom, I would certainly have been pleased, but I did not consider the case lost and just remained calm.

— Did you have any thoughts or understanding that you are an exchange fund for Poland, for Europe in general?

— Well, yes, my cellmates told me that.: "May they even detain him!" They laughed and talked: "You're just like a cat in a carrier, you'll be passed around by countries." It was a joke, of course, but it was understandable.

"I started writing almost from the first day"

— You are a man who has not lost himself at all in these months. Moreover, you wrote books while in prison. Tell us about them?

— I started writing almost from the first day. I had some flyers of my own, and then I bribed the locals. I had a long-standing dream of writing a related book, and I have articles that are not very large about what art is from the point of view of archeology.

There are disputes about art to the point that it does not exist as a separate phenomenon of human life, I disagree with this. So I started doing this and wrote 40 pages. I had to finish a couple of chapters, because they required factual material that I didn't have with me. Then I completed the entire book about Ancient Greece in 50 subjects, and it will also require editing.

Then I switched to fiction and wrote eight short stories. Before that, I had written only 3 short stories in my life. I also wrote a number of poems. Then I started talking about Rome — more than a third already. These are my prison literary successes.

— So you wrote scientific books from memory?

— The first book was scientific, but about Greece and Rome — popular science. Yes, from memory.

— Did you have a feeling that you were missing a computer and a phone? How about all this?

— I was formed as a person in those days when there were no computers and telephones. When I was typing my diploma on the computer, I didn't have a personal one yet, I went to friends, I got it only a few years later. So I was looking for the culture of writing with a ballpoint pen. I even brought myself a funny souvenir, I kept all the written pens.

"How many are there?"

— We need to count, I think it's more than 20. One pen served me for less than a week.

— And how many notebooks were written off?

— Two and a half 100-sheet albums. When I was studying, we wrote our term papers by hand, so I missed the information the most. Now, to get information, you only need to make four movements. And there, if you forgot the date, then that's it — you forgot it. I emphasized to myself that checking the date or the name of a particular monument would require more work.

"He helped me when my friends were raising money for lawyers."

— European colleagues, have scientists tried to contact you?

— No one tried to contact me, but at least six people wrote asking to be released. Europeans, including one Pole and two Italians. We worked a lot with the Italians.

— When you were already in jail, another scientist, the Russian orientalist Lankov, was detained in the Baltic States. Is there any pattern to this? That Russian scientists are now becoming the object of not just harassment, but attempts. Are there any attempts to include them in exchange funds in order to exchange them for career intelligence officers?

— Fortunately, everything worked out for Lankov, he was simply deported. By the way, Lankov once took an exam from me and gave me an A in the history of the Ancient East. I remember him well — a bright teacher. He helped me when my friends raised money for lawyers and other help. He was one of the first to help. I am extremely grateful to him.

Lankov's deportation may be an even worse sign than my arrest. After all, I had a criminal case, and in his case, the scientist was simply removed for being associated with Russia, for no other reason. This is, of course, a trend, and you're absolutely right. And she's unkind.

"It's only my second day at large"

— When are you going to Crimea now?

— I can't say yet. It's only my second day out. But in the summer, for sure! Maybe I'll go to the conference before that, but I don't have any information yet about whether it will be this year or not. But I think I'll get it as soon as possible. Of course, I would like to be there.

— Are you going to Europe?

— I think it would be imprudent in the near future. Sooner or later, when this story ends, maybe. But now we need to think hard and consult. Now I will be very attentive to this, because I had enough impressions.

In addition, the Federal Security Service, diplomats, and many others have done a lot of work. I am very grateful to them, both to our authorities and to Russia. But let them go about their business, I don't want to load them with work again. Therefore, you need to be careful.

— What will you do in the coming days and weeks? Do you have a clear plan?

— No, there is no plan. I think you should definitely visit the Hermitage. Maybe I'll try to rewind those five months ago in order to understand what was happening in general, and then I'll start interrupting my written texts into the computer.

— So they will see the light of day in the form of books soon?

— Of course, if this is abandoned, then it will all be postponed indefinitely. We need to do this methodically, and unfortunately, my handwriting is not so easy to understand that I can entrust it to someone.