"If a person has only one dream in life, it's a boring life!"

You can study Russia, the largest and most beautiful country, endlessly, as the Russian Geographical Society (RGS), founded by the supreme command of Nicholas I in 1845, has been proving day after day for the past 180 years. What will be the new school geography textbook, what secrets do the islands hold, where to live in Russia, how to explore Alaska with the United States, where the sunsets are the most beautiful in the world, whether Kusturica can make a film on behalf of the Russian Geographical Society — these and other questions were answered by Sergei Shoigu, who has been president of the Russian Geographical Society for 16 years. societies. In the year of the celebration of the anniversary of the Russian Geographical Society, he met with representatives of Izvestia, TASS, Rossiyskaya Gazeta and Komsomolskaya Pravda.

— Sergey Kuzhugetovich, a fragment of a conversation between two sociologists has been discussed on social networks for months. One of them cites a VTSIOM survey: among current schoolchildren, only 20% know where the Volga flows into. At the same time, only 2.5% of students chose geography for the Unified State Exam. Doesn't this mean that a generation is growing up who literally doesn't feel their country?

— If you look back, 15-20 years ago the picture was much sadder. We also conducted surveys back then, and the answers, I can tell you, were not just strange, but frightening. Many did not even know that Lake Baikal was located in Russia.

But I would not dramatize the current situation. She's changing, and she's changing for the better. We have already done a lot and we continue to work.

For example, we are creating new geography textbooks that are completely different from before. Back then, everything was boring, superficial, and sometimes even naively politicized.

Photo: Sergey Shoigu

I remember in an old textbook they wrote about Transbaikalia: "There are no forests here because everything was cut down by poachers and sold." And in another, that "the whole territory is polluted by oil production, it is impossible to live, you can only work as a shift worker." You can't read this to children. Geography should arouse interest and pride, not guilt.

In general, the task of the Russian Geographical Society is for people to see and then love their country: their region, city, village. That's why we support regional textbooks, when children study not abstract continents, but their own places — and rediscover them.

We have a lot of work ahead of us, but, you know, it's a good job — it restores respect for yourself and your land.

— How did geography begin for you personally? When did she become something of her own?

— Since school. We had an amazing teacher. She didn't just teach lessons, but opened up the world to us. She talked about riddles, about mysteries, about travel — and it was so fascinating that we literally lived these stories.

Since then, I've had an idea: to collect a book of riddles. Real, big, unreal. There are some that I would like to explore, solve, and figure out.

Many people say, "Now everything is open, there is nothing to look for." But I don't agree. Take the Tunguska meteorite, for example, because this is not the only case. There were other objects that came to our planet.

We recently found a berthing site for a Bering ship.

But once upon a time, the first expedition of the Russian Geographical Society went to Tiksi and was going to stay for a season, but lived there for three years, organizing the first weather station.

Remember: in 1941-1942, 20 airfields for Lend-Lease were built from Alaska to Krasnoyarsk. In the tundra! No navigation, no GPS, no heavy machinery.

And the Transsib? Nine years, nine and a half thousand kilometers — without excavators, without bulldozers. It's a feat of human will and curiosity.

These are the stories I want to tell you about. I think we will definitely publish this collection of riddles in the near future.

— You mentioned that the Russian Geographical Society is involved in the creation of new school textbooks. What do you want to see in them? And when will they appear?

— There is a decision by the Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Russian Geographical Society, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, to create his own geography textbook. We have already started this work. It is headed by the first vice-president of the Society Nikolay Kasimov.

This is just the beginning, but we hope that the first textbooks will appear by 2028.

In addition to textbooks, we produce many other publications — scientific, educational, and expedition. And all of them are aimed at the same thing: to teach to see and understand the country.

We also hold contests. For example, "The best guide in Russia." Thousands of participants from all over the country are young, enthusiastic, and talented. It's like TV shows where people compete in singing or humor, but here it's different — it's a competition in knowledge of their land.

Photo: Sergey Shoigu

Sometimes I think: if we had been as persistent in promoting geography and history as we are in promoting banking products or diapers, we would have known the country much better. Look at how many ads there are about Turkey. But it would be possible to show volcanoes of Kamchatka, Kuril Islands, Baikal.

If at least part of the advertising time were devoted to a story about Russia, I am sure that interest in it would grow instantly.

— Will the new textbook contain the riddles you mentioned?

— It's too early to talk about it — we only have the first sketches, a rough layout. But I think that a separate collection of riddles will appear. We have already started to select the material and hope to prepare it soon.

— You have repeatedly mentioned in various interviews about sibirization. There were several waves of development in Siberia, and often this was due to forced resettlement of convicts and exiles. You wrote that even in the 1980s, parasites and girls with low social responsibility were exiled there. What is sibirization really? How to attract people to this difficult region?

— The popular opinion that Siberia was mastered only by convicts is not entirely true. Take the same BAM — there were no prisoners there. It was a construction site for enthusiasts, military railroad workers, and people infected with the idea of creation.

Every generation has left its mark, from the discovery of Alaska to the Komsomol construction projects. Recently, the guys found an old book from 1933 in a landfill. It contains plans for the construction of ten hydroelectric power plants on the Yenisei and six on the Angara. It was assumed that by the end of the third five-year plan, the country's electricity would become the cheapest in the world. It was a grandiose project: aluminum plants, synthetic fuels from coal, and electrometallurgy. So this is the Sibirization of Russia: development, creation, and moving forward.

"What about now?"

— Now the situation is different, but the essence is the same — to use what nature has given. Look: we are the first in the world in nickel, the first in manganese, the second in titanium and tungsten, and the second in rare earths. And for copper — the third.

But here's the paradox: they are the first in terms of reserves, and 0.6% in terms of their nickel consumption. We sell raw materials, but we import finished products for almost the same amount. The same story applies to copper — exports increased by 7 billion, while imports of finished products increased by 73 billion. We take out the most valuable things and buy what we could make ourselves. That's where there's scope for work, both for young people and for new industries.

— If numbers and resources are important for the state, then how can people regain the enthusiasm that they had during the development of virgin lands and the construction of BAM? How to "light up" a person?

In tsarist Russia, there was a resettlement department for the development of Siberia, it was also called Stolypinsky. And although the development of Siberia began before Pyotr Stolypin, it was thanks to him that a large-scale, largest resettlement program in the country's history began in Russia. People did not ride on orders, but at will. They were allocated land, livestock, seeds, and were exempt from recruitment. And settlements were built on the ground in advance so that the visitor could see that it was possible to live here.

Photo: Sergey Shoigu

Yes, at different times there were convict construction sites, and Komsomol, and military. But the main thing is the belief that all this is necessary. Back then, poets, musicians, artists, even hockey teams and cosmonauts traveled with the builders — everyone wanted to be a part of the big deal.

Now it is necessary to create conditions under which a person understands that his work is in demand, his family is protected, and life in these territories makes sense. We need support programs — housing, benefits, tax breaks. So that people don't go according to their orders, but according to the call of their hearts. Arrange your life, earn money.

— It is enough to recall Mayakovsky.

— Yes, "I know — the city will be, I know — the garden will blossom...".

– "When there are such people in a Soviet country!"

— Yes, and then you remember when we all went to build right from the Komsomol congress: BAM went to build, the shock Komsomol construction sites, Sayano-Shushenskaya HPP, Krasnoyarsk HPP, Mainskaya HPP, Bratskaya HPP.

And then, of course, Pakhmutova and Dobronravov were involved, the best artists came there, a team of players went there after the World Hockey Championship, astronauts flew, they opened and laid new construction sites, entire cities. And all in order for us to be provided for, not to feel disconnected from the life of the country.

Another approach: in Russia, they proposed to calculate the damage to aquatic biological resources in a new way

Issues of conservation of aquatic ecosystems and ways to assess anthropogenic impact on biological resources were discussed in Svetlogorsk.

The same thing is needed now. But you need to set up slightly different markers. This is both a job and a salary. This is probably a subsidy. Conditionally, if you have received housing for ten years and lived there for ten years, then the loan itself is repaid. Large companies that can and should go there are exempt from part of the taxes for a certain period of time until they raise it all.

And of course, much of what has been done needs to be corrected here. During the period of the so-called perestroika, when everything stood up, when the dreams and destinies of thousands of people, families, and entire industries were crumbling. Something can't be fixed, hundreds of construction sites, factories, and cities across the country have been stopped. But a lot can be revived and continued.

— And here are the problems of the abandoned cities of Siberia and the Far East. What is happening to them in general and how to deal with them?

— I don't think it's such a big problem. It all started with a great rise, with enthusiasm and enthusiasm, when there was a consolidation of state farms, Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev organized the whole thing. Let's expand, on the one hand, but on the other hand, we cannot afford more chickens, pigs, and cows. A garden plot of six acres and a 3x3 or 2x2 house. But today there are all opportunities for us to develop those cities that already exist, and new ones have appeared.

I showed you a book from 1933. The second approach was in 1971, when a joint resolution of the Central Committee and the Council of Ministers on the development of Siberian production facilities was issued. That's when KATEK appeared, and then we started building these large complexes. Then the third "shell approach" was in 1981. This is also a resolution of the Central Committee.

I just fell under them (after graduating from the Krasnoyarsk Polytechnic Institute and becoming a civil engineer, Sergei Shoigu worked in Siberia for more than 10 years in this specialty: master of the Promkhimstroy trust in Krasnoyarsk, head of the Tuvinstroy trust in Kyzyl, senior foreman, chief engineer, head of the construction trust departmentAchinsk Aluminum Construction in Achinsk, deputy manager of the Sayanalyuminstroy Trust in Sayanogorsk, manager of the Sayantyazhstroy and Abakanvagonstroy trusts in Abakan. — Ed.). And many cities were supposed to be built there, and they appeared. These are Sayanogorsk, Divnogorsk, Cheryomushki, Lesosibirsk. Many cities…

By the way, we once calculated in the Russian Geographical Society: during the Soviet socialist rule, more than 600 cities appeared in our country. And I am not in favor of the fact that we need to gather everyone in large megacities and cities and go on a shift somewhere to get something. We have an incredibly beautiful and rich country. You can live anywhere and everywhere in our country.

I think we will probably start a large research program on Russia next year: where to live. This is such a large amount of data — where and how much people inhale: exhaust fumes, metallurgical plants, the smell of rosemary, freshly cut grasses and other things. Where is the water: there are rivers where no one dumps anything anywhere. Animals that have never seen grass with pesticides and herbicides in their lives. That is, somewhere in which, if not pristine, but where it is possible and necessary to live.

I keep remembering how the cities were moved when the reservoir of the Sayano-Shushenskaya HPP was filled. That is, we lived here for 100 years, 200 — our grandfathers, great-grandfathers. And then they tell people: the time has come, all this will go under water, if you want, let's move it.

Of course, you can sit down and calculate it dryly. Four families live in the village. We maintain a power line, carry mail, a car stall goes there, we need to maintain the road so that an ambulance arrives, and so on. You can, of course, go this way, or you can go the other way.

There are a lot of projects that could and should be done. Well, look how the city of Lesosibirsk appeared. This is just north of the arrow, where the Angara flows into the Yenisei. They decided to build a large complex for processing timber there, because there is a river, which is accessed by a railway, a highway, and then the Northern Sea Route. You can ship timber both to the right and to the left. A city appeared. Let's go, people. They live there today.

Well, why don't we continue with this? And the same Minusinsk electrical complex. 12 largest power engineering enterprises. The city of 250 thousand was supposed to appear, almost under 300 thousand. Thank God, they are starting to promote the aluminum valley and other things there now.

Why did we make the Transsib? What was BAM built for? What is the purpose? These are all clear, clear, obvious things — in order not only to develop these territories, but also to ensure that life and work there are normal. So that people go there, not from there.

— Khatanga is not such a big city, but environmental cleanup has been carried out. Will planes fly to the North Pole with travelers from there?

— If there are travelers, why not fly? They'll probably fly.

When we launched our Russian Geographical Society photo contest "The most beautiful Country" and published the first photos of the Putorana plateau — crazy waterfalls, rivers, canyons — so many tourists went there!

The main thing is to understand why you are going to travel. For example, I would like to fly to Wrangel Island, because it is considered a polar bear maternity hospital. The Russian Geographical Society, by the way, counted 774 polar bears on Wrangel Island. It is interesting.

— From Khatanga, you can fly not only to the North Pole, but also to the Popigai field. The largest in the world, not jewelry, but industrial diamonds.

— You see, you're on the right track. I know Khatanga, I've been there many times. Both in Dudinka and on Dixon. Today, there are good guys there who are engaged in port infrastructure, cargo transshipment, and so on. Of course, Khatanga will live and develop. But definitely not for the sake of flying to the North Pole from there.

— Another statistical question. The Russian Geographical Society currently has about 30,000 members. Do you have any plan, for example, by such and such a year there should be 40 thousand in the Russian Geographical Society?

— No, we have no such plans. We do not have the CPSU, and we certainly do not seek to have millions of members of Society. First of all, I would like them to be like-minded people and those people who are really interested not only in geography, but also in the history of our country, who are ready to dare and who are in a hurry to live.

— Historically, for obvious reasons, there were a lot of naval officers and officers in general in the Imperial Russian Geographical Society. If you don't reveal military secrets, do you have a lot of people in uniform now?

— You know, officers, especially naval officers, are very eager to join the Russian Geographical Society. And they do a lot of work with desire, with passion. Moreover, the defense department has such opportunities. The Northern Fleet and the fleet in Kamchatka and the Kuril Ridge. And the military themselves carry out their hydrographic work: depth measurements, exploration of new territories, straits, passages, and so on.

Before the revolution, the Russian Geographical Society was called a branch of foreign intelligence. This is certainly not the case today.

— Do you have any idea of creating a travel company, an operator at the Russian Geographical Society? You verify some directions, don't you?

— We are verifying, yes, this idea came to us so that we could evaluate it and say: yes, the Russian Geographical Society has looked at it, it's really worth it.

— Recommended by the Russian Geographical Society.

— Yes, we have such an icon: "Recommended by the Russian Geographical Society." I think this is an absolutely correct idea. As for the travel company, I am not in favor of this, since our tasks are somewhat different. All these years, we've been introducing people to the country they were born in, and falling in love with it. We hold exhibitions and traveling exhibitions in the regions of the country and around the world. We unite people at the Russian Geographical Society Festival, in our photo contest "The most beautiful country", and invite them to a Geographical dictation. Together with enthusiastic journalists, we make dozens of documentaries, and this, in particular, is the great work of the Moya Planeta TV channel. Correspondents of the magazine "Around the World" and other well-known publications, with whom we have been friends for many years, tell about the history of the country and about our expeditions.

Photo: Ilya Trukhanov

— When the "Most Beautiful Country" contest was just starting, they said that Russia was one of the most unreleased countries in the world. Have we already captured Russia, or are there still places where photographers should go and make beautiful shots to show and love?

— Listen, Lena pillars. Who has shown them exhaustively? And it's impossible. But we must strive for this. I've been there twice. And I don't have a complete picture of all the beauty. And the Chersky Ridge, the same Kamchatka, the Kuril Islands, and caves all over the country, completely unreleased.

Photo: Olga Babushkina

Thanks to the Russian Geographical Society, the Expeditionary Center of the Ministry of Defense, which was established together with the society, people began to learn much more about the Kuril Islands. People have heard about Shumsha, about Kunashir. We told you more about Baikal, Crimea, Tuva, and so on.

— And the country has become even bigger. What is the interest of Donbass and Novorossiya for the Russian Geographical Society, are there any plans?

— It's good that you didn't say "new regions", because I believe that these are not new, but old regions. Our old regions, which are historically ours. Of course, it's interesting there.

They are all connected to our history in one way or another. We have many different projects here. Of course, we want to restore the research that took place, including in Soviet times. And research on wildlife. And most importantly, this is, of course, everything that concerns ethnic groups. This was initially, almost from the moment of the foundation of the Russian Geographical Society, one of the priorities.

Regional offices have already been opened in all these regions. There are gambling people who love our country very much. The Konstantinovskaya battery was repaired and turned into a museum in Sevastopol, and archaeologists are working along the Azov and Crimean coasts. Underwater research of ancient monuments from the time of the Great Patriotic War is underway — the motor ship Armenia was recently found.

Putin called on the Cabinet to support the construction sector

At the meeting with Khusnullin, the president assessed the pace of development of the reunified regions and the implementation of a new national project.

Interestingly, the Russian Geographical Society "shows significant and long-term interest in Novorossiya and Donbass." These are studies in the field of geography, ecology, history, preservation of cultural and natural heritage. In 2023, four new regional branches of the Russian Geographical Society were opened: in the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, Zaporizhia and Kherson regions, which not only represent the Russian Geographical Society locally, but are already implementing their own projects aimed at integrating the regions into the scientific and cultural field of Russia, educating local residents and popularizing geographical knowledge.

In 2024-2025, the Presidential Grants Fund is implementing the educational project "100 reliable facts about Novorossiya for Generation Z in electronic images from the archive, cartographic fund and library of the Russian Geographical Society", the essence of which is to confirm the inextricable link between Novorossiya and Russia, proving that we are one people, one country.

— How are the relations of the Russian Geographical Society with foreign countries developing? For example, is exploring Alaska together a fantasy or could it become a reality?

— I think it's quite realistic. Given that we have achieved a lot in the development of our North, we have tremendous experience, and I think the time will come when it will be in demand.

For example, we recently completed a project to survey the facilities of the Alsib air route.

Photo: Alexander Bormotin

Of course, we wanted monuments to pilots and researchers to be erected on both sides in Alaska and in Chukotka. A museum can and should appear there to show the heroic stage of our common history. A feat of our and American pilots.

— But now there are no contacts with colleagues from the USA?

— There are relations between states. And there is a relationship between people. We have been cooperating with veterans' organizations for many years, preserving the memory of the joint struggle against Nazism during the Great Patriotic War.

In general, we are currently working closely with Serbia, China, and India. We will soon open RGS centers in Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Kyrgyzstan.

— About Lend-lease, the expeditions of the Russian Geographical Society, joint work with the military and historians. During one of the last expeditions, a P-63 Kingcobra was found, which crashed in 1945 in the Far East. In general, you have a lot of such finds during your expeditions. Is there no desire to open a museum of the Russian Geographical Society?

— The history of the Russian Geographical Society is very rich in various cases and events. Many of the museums were founded by merchants. They traveled to different countries, bringing all kinds of artifacts that had to be placed somewhere and shown somewhere. If you are in Irkutsk today, you will see that the main building of the Museum of Local lore is the museum of the Russian Geographical Society. If you come to Vladivostok, the Russian Geographical Society owned three buildings in the city center. Including the lecture hall. It's the same in Tomsk, Omsk, and many other cities.

Photo: the press service of the Russian Geographical Society, Anna Yurgenson

If we talk about museums today, I think yes, we need to restore and revive this tradition. And create a large museum in Moscow. We have the most unique archives that people should see.

In addition, we digitize all our maps, documents, atlases and other publications. Special equipment was purchased for this purpose. We have the largest geographical library in Europe at our headquarters in St. Petersburg. An amazing collection that is constantly being updated.

— Are there any geographers who are crazy in a good way now?

— There is. Well, imagine that we have about 20 federal expeditions a year and about 400 regional branches. When we did an expedition to explore the route of the Kyzyl–Kuragino railway, we had a large expedition camp with more than 2.6 thousand volunteers from 60 countries. But who does one have to be to come to Sayan from Mexico?

— In a good way, crazy...

— Yes, to break through the route of the Kyzyl–Kuragino railway through the Sayan Mountains. Or cleaning up the Arctic. They're not going there for the money. Khatanga was mentioned. This is such a reference center in the Arctic, where everything has been cleaned, put in order, and tidied up. In fact, we have cleared all the debris from the territories where the Ministry of Defense is located. In 10 years, more than 25 thousand tons of various kinds of barrels, scrap metal and other garbage have been removed from the territory of the Arctic zone of the Russian Federation.

— What are the difficulties with cleaning up still?

— Mainly with logistics. You don't carry empty barrels, so the equipment for pressing them was specially made to take up less space. And this is a seasonal job, you can't start it and do it all year round, there are difficulties in that too. Our scientists are developing absorbent substances. There's a lot of work.

This is a job that should have been started at some point, and, of course, we must pay tribute to our president here. He didn't just give the command, he came to Franz Josef Land in 2010. I saw that there were hundreds of barrels and scrap metal around, the edges were not visible, everything was crowded. And then a large-scale program to clean up the Arctic was launched. And there were funds in the federal budget, there were volunteers, volunteers, environmentalists who not only say how bad everything is, but make the Arctic cleaner with their own hands.

— You have members of the Russian Geographical Society — the world-famous director Emir Kusturica, Hollywood star Steven Seagal. Aren't you going to surprise us?

— I'll tell you what — different thoughts are maturing about this. Emir Kusturica has many different plans in Russia. And they're all so deeply patriotic. Secondly, they are very valuable in their essence. If any good ideas come up, I'm sure he's a gambling man, and he'll certainly support you.

If you look at the list of honorary members of the Russian Geographical Society — which, by the way, we will soon post here on the building — we have princes and kings there, and a huge number of different people who are significant not only for world science, but also for politics.

— As a person who oversees all expeditions, do you still have a dream: one day take a vacation and go on some special expedition, what do you dream of?

— If a person has only one dream in life, it's a boring life! I hope that we will have a final expedition to the Tunnug mound. That's where I'd like to go. This place holds an incredible amount of mysteries, even though it's already in its eighth season. I would also like to sail along the Lena River to Tiksi and go to the Irkutsk region. To Wrangel Island, Kotelny Island is the Novosibirsk Islands, follow the route of Felix Cohn and Vladimir Grum-Grzhimailo. I would like to return to Taimyr. Where I worked, made friends, and built.

The Tunnug Expedition

Photo: Anna Klochko

— Where are the most beautiful sunrises, where are the most beautiful sunsets?

— I've seen the most beautiful sunsets in the Sayan Mountains. The whole palette of colors appears before you. It's a fascinating sight. Such a country of blue mountains.

Photo: from Sergei Shoigu's personal archive

I was on a business trip to Burma. There is a huge valley of ancient pagodas. The sun touches the top of each of them. Very beautiful. And yet it is more beautiful in the Sayan Mountains.

— Is there a boundary in geography?

— No, of course not. Someone said that borders are barbed wire, blocking the vessels that ensure the life of the planet and human communication. Something like that. And I can agree with that.

— Your stories are waiting to be put on paper. A few years ago, you wrote a book (a collection of short stories "About Yesterday"). Will there be a second book?

— You know, I wasn't going to describe myself in that book. It's just that there were interesting people I had the opportunity to work with and meet. And there are actually many such stories.

How did this book come about in the first place? I often came across all kinds of information and opinions about myself and my colleagues. From this, it seemed that we were born today, and tomorrow we are already in the ministerial chair. And that there was nothing between these events. No life, no studies, no practice. There were no sad or joyful events. There were no achievements, achievements, creation, there was nothing. But it's not like that. And this applies not only to me, but to anyone in general. We had a rich, interesting, and creative life. So that's how the idea matures... There will be a new book.

"We'll be waiting."

— Wait.